Ignoring critics, Paul Low pursues a better Malaysia

Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Datuk Paul Low says change in the country must be incremental and accumulative, not radical. – The Malaysian Insider pic by Nazir Sufari, April 8, 2015.Senator Datuk Paul Low shares his vision for a better Malaysia as he marks two years in office with an exclusive interview with The Malaysian Insider.

To say that Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department for integrity, governance and human rights Datuk Paul Low has his work cut out for him is an understatement.

In his own words, the job of instilling good governance and integrity within our decades-old institutions and civil service is a mammoth task, and not for the weak-hearted.

Low will soon celebrate his second anniversary without any pomp and pageantry after assuming the post in May 2013.

He is, however, faced with growing criticism from both the opposition and rights groups who claim he is unwilling to take a hard stand against allegations of corruption in government.

Low has remained unperturbed by the criticism and instead says he understands where his detractors are coming from, seeing as he was the former president of Transparency International’s Malaysian chapter.

“Everyone expects me to do what they want, what they expect,” Low said at his office in Putrajaya recently in response to the criticism.

“Not everyone is familiar with the issue of the government’s integrity and fighting corruption. For them, the issue is simple – bribe or not, catch the offender. That’s simple, a layman's idea,” he said.

The truth, Low said, was a lot more complex as it involved not only changing the existing legislations and practices, but also changing the mindset of the people.

Below are excerpts of Low’s interview with The Malaysian Insider, where he shares his motivations and goals for the ministry, and openly addresses the challenges this country faces.

TMI: What made you take up this position after serving as the head of an international rights group like TI-M?

LOW: The bottom line is, for every single person, we want a better future. I wanted to see a better future for Malaysia, but how do I get it? What do I do? One way for me was to remain in an NGO, be an activist.

Would that bring change? I don’t know. Or the other way is… can I be constructive? Can I come to the government and say, “Can we work together, can we join hands and work with me?” Now, I cannot just be an armchair critic and criticise.

I chose the path where I may have the solution, if not completely, but if people whom I criticise ask for help, I have to walk the talk. It’s very easy for people to shout, but when the rubber hits the road and they are asked for help, they either don’t have the expertise or they cannot sacrifice the time to help.

So my policy has always been, if anybody I criticise as an NGO… if they ask for help, I will help. That’s how I took on the job.

TMI: When you came on board as minister, can you describe the state of the government in terms of transparency and integrity?

LOW: I felt that… at that time, the country’s corruption was quite bad. In terms of the Corruption Perception Index, it was deteriorating. There was a lot of political corruption and there was also a high degree of “state capture”.

The issue is you have petty corruption, which is – when you pay the police, or you pay somebody to push the file. But what is more serious is the corruption relating to “state capture”.

Basically, this is where people in power, politicians, civil servants and so on who are in a position of authority, find a way of exploiting the weaknesses of the government or bypassing the proper good practices of government and gaining for themselves through a tender or a licence.

They capture the machinery of the state to serve themselves, or to serve members of their family or to give benefits to their proxy or supporters in the case of politics.

Petty corruption can be dealt with by administrative procedures. Malaysia is quite advanced in this, and our petty corruption, (while) it’s still there – you cannot eliminate completely – but it is not that serious that it inhibits you from doing business. The big issue here rather is “state capture”.

TMI: Do you have a list of priorities of key areas that need to change?

LOW: When I came in, I asked myself: “If I were to do things here, what is the legacy or change I want to make sure my team or government will leave behind?”

The priority is to build strong institutions such as the judiciary, the anti-corruption agency, the Auditor-General’s office, the Attorney-General and law enforcement. There are a lot of arguments now that many of these institutions are politicised.

The point is that they must be intact, they must be run professionally and of course, ideally, not politicised. It is my job as minister to ensure these institutions are run that way.

Are we happy with these institutions now? Of course not, there’s still a lot to be done. So we need to deal with these as a priority.

TMI: Why is it important for our nation to address the issues of deep-rooted corruption?

LOW: Malaysia cannot grow from its level of government today to a high-income level. Of course, there are other reasons – human resource problems, innovation, creativity, education.

But one of the reasons that you need to deal with is the area of good governance. If you look at every single country that has got an advanced economy, they have a culture of intolerance of corruption in governance.

Countries collapse not because of economic reasons, but because of corruption. So for Malaysia, if you want to advance, you need to deal with the issue of governance and integrity… and inside that is corruption.

It’s not just a simple case of paying a bribe. It’s an economic imperative. You just cannot develop where you are without dealing with this issue.

TMI: What does it take for holistic change to take place within our government and civil service?

LOW: You must build strong institutions and frameworks. Whatever rules and laws you put in, if the minds and hearts of people are not changed, they will find ways to break these rules.

Enforcement (alone) doesn’t build institutions, it just takes the (corrupt) person out. The next person or government who comes in will face the same problems.

If you don’t have the institution or infrastructure, and if you change the government, that new government will not necessarily be righteous. So the institution and framework is very important.

Once I have that, the issue I ask is, how do you then change 30 to 50 years of an entrenched way of working, for example in the civil service? Do you come in and say, take a surgical knife to cut this and that? By doing that, you create a lot of opposition and antagonism, and you may cut the good parts out.

This kind of radical transformation cannot be done. It has to be done on an incremental and accumulative improvement basis.

Quick changes do not allow root to take place, and after the campaign is over, everything collapses, everything will go back to where it was.

You want to go on a sustainable basis of letting the root take place, and you need to change the mindset, hearts and minds of the culture. That’s difficult. Changing people takes time. This is what we are doing. And there are so many, so many areas that we need to change.

TMI: The task at hand seems insurmountable. Do you enlist help from the outside?

LOW: Because of the bureaucracy and protocol, as an NGO outside, you question why problems cannot be solved. That’s why the NGOs feel the government is not doing anything.

Because of this animosity between NGOs and the government, for many years, we have treated NGOs like they are not with us. They just criticise us. The NGO doesn’t understand why the government cannot deliver.

But as far as civil servants are concerned, they have delivered their portion, but they cannot control the other agencies. The culture change I need to bring in is that the government must be inclusive.

We don’t have all the solutions, we must listen to the NGO. We must have dialogue with the NGO and contact. There are good and bad ones, but we prefer those who are constructive. Don’t just come and make a big noise, protest and then walk out.

Be constructive. We will tell you our problems, you tell us yours and if you can come in and help us, all the better.

TMI: Recently, you were quoted as saying that you’re not about to resign any time soon. Can you elaborate on that stand, and also what legacy you hope to leave behind?

LOW: To me, it’s very simple. The first thing is… if I want a better future, and to change needs energy and sustainability. I’m not a politician, I’m here to do my job.

And if the prime minister invites me and assures me of his support, why should I betray his trust? And today, I’ve seen the changes that are already happening. Why should I resign?

Just because the opinion outside is adverse to me. If I was to base my work on the opinions of me, I will not last long. There are two million opinions outside. If I resign, others will say I’m a coward. Others will say I cannot last. There are so many different opinions.

But for me, what is the conviction of my heart? Do I want a better future? Do I see things improving? Do I see things moving?

I’ve gained the complete trust of all the ministers now. If I resign now, I’m betraying the PM and I’m betraying the people. The easy thing to do is to quit and go for a holiday.

TMI: What do you have to say to your critics who question the outcome of your time in office?

LOW: In the end I may not achieve 100% of what I want to achieve, but even if I achieve 10%, 20% or 30%, it’s better than before. – April 8, 2015.

* In the second instalment of our three-part report, Datuk Paul Low speaks openly about the challenges facing the police and how public distrust for the force has reached critical levels.